Discussion:
can't seem to pull in this ng from eternal-september..
(too old to reply)
AugustA
2023-02-05 22:50:29 UTC
Permalink
What's going on?
Ralph Fox
2023-02-06 02:38:02 UTC
Permalink
Subject: can't seem to pull in this ng from eternal-september..
What's going on?
You can get the answer from the horse's mouth, Eternal-September itself.

1. Go to Eternal-September's website
<https://www.eternal-september.org/>

2. Look at the top of the right-hand column.

3. Read the item beginning like this...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
2023-02-03 11:18:29 microsoft.* hierarchy
removed

More than 10 years after Microsoft shut
down their [...]
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


If that is not enough, read the newsgroup eternal-september.support.
AugustA
2023-02-09 00:03:17 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 06 Feb 2023 15:38:02 +1300
Ralph Fox <-rf-nz-@-.invalid> wrote:

RF> 3. Read the item beginning like this...
RF>
RF> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RF> 2023-02-03 11:18:29 microsoft.* hierarchy
RF> removed
RF>
RF> More than 10 years after Microsoft shut
RF> down their [...]
RF> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
RF>
RF>
RF> If that is not enough, read the newsgroup eternal-september.support.

I've read both. There is no explanation WHY the sudden cut-off though.
It seems like a bad judgment imho.
Ralph Fox
2023-02-09 04:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by AugustA
I've read both. There is no explanation WHY the sudden cut-off though.
It seems like a bad judgment imho.
The ES Admin's (Ray Banana's) explanation WHY was, "in the light of
the current influx of spam from Google to the microsft.* groups...".
See the post "microsoft.* hierarchy removed from E-S" in
eternal-september.support (copy below for your reference).

You may not agree with his explanation why, but he is the one who made
the decision -- not me, not anyone else replying in this here thread.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ QUOTE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: Ray Banana <***@raybanana.net>
Newsgroups: eternal-september.support
Subject: microsoft.* hierarchy removed from E-S
Date: Thu, 02 Feb 2023 11:38:23 +0100
Message-ID: <***@raybanana.net>


More than 11 years after Microsoft closed down their news server and the
microsoft support groups, and in the light of the current influx of spam
from Google to the microsft.* groups, this hierarchy has now been
removed from Eternal-September. Good riddance.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ QUOTE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Newyana2
2023-02-09 13:16:12 UTC
Permalink
"AugustA" <***@thankyou.invalid> wrote

| I've read both. There is no explanation WHY the sudden cut-off though.
| It seems like a bad judgment imho.

As Ralph's last post indicates, the man doesn't like MS
and it's his server. That server is named Eternal
September, so it seems likely that Ray is an oldtimer
who only does this because he feels a kind of
religious fealty to some idea of "the real Internet".
Founders' neurosis. It happens in all areas of life.

Judging from his "Good riddance" and deliberate
lack of common courtesy, I'd further guess that he feels
carrying MS groups in the past has been a dirty
business; presumably because MS groups are an
abomination in the pure religion of usenet. And he's
not goiing to just say that, so he's muttering something
about terrible spam.

The bottom line is that the groups were available
for years, at no cost, and Ray is not required to
carry them. I would guess that usenet altogether
will be gone before long. Maybe Facebook will bring
back a facsimile. :) I was surprised, when I decided
to look into it, that the very idea of text-based usenet
has virtually disappeared. Anyone talking about
newsgroups is talking about how much they pay to
trade files. Young people only know the shopping
mall model -- computing as entertainment service.

Times are changing faster than ever. I have trouble
these days just using my phone. People on cellphones
want to text me, video call, reach me at any minute
of the day.... A growing number of people simply
doesn't conceive of a world where there are people who
are not strapped to cellphones. Last week I was at a
doctor's office. They wanted me to fill out forms. In
typical fashion, they'd copied my "home" number into
the cellphone field. I crossed it out, in the remote
chance that a person might actually update records.

Their software assumes a single phone number *must*
be a cellphone, even thoughwidespread cellphone use
is probably less than 15 years old. Then they told
me the doctor would want to do a "tele-health" call
later. "Make sure you turn on your camera." The
Millennial receptionist had to check whether it's legal
to tele-health via landline. (Presumably they really
just had to check whether they can bill "tele-health"
for what's clearly a phone call and not a "virtual visit".)

So I guess it's not surprising if some people like Ray
want to keep their rotary phone and call Information, for
old times' sake. Then they fire up their computer and go
to newsgroups to talk about punch card programming,
just like the old men at the hardware store who think
carpentry was ruined by the advent of power tools.
("Back then you had to know what you were doing.")

Getting old is a humbling thing. And the worst of it
is that young people simply can't grok that they'll get
old, so they assume age is just a personal failing. These
days, who can blame them? Jane Fonda and Madonna
are not aging, after all.

Newyana2
2023-02-06 19:39:15 UTC
Permalink
"AugustA" <***@gmail.com> wrote

| What's going on?

Ray, the owner of E-S, has decided to dump all MS
groups. You can see discussion at eternal-september.support.
People have been exploring options for a few days now.
So far I've tried various things and can find only one
open server that's working. There was one that
Vanguard reccomended, something thing soralis. I
signed up there but haven't yet had a response. Just
now I found that paganini.bofh.team seems to work fine
and has all groups. Just don't try to make it work
encrypted. Use port 119.

It looks like E-S is kaput. Ray seems to have some
sort of grudge about MS, as do several regulars there.
He says he dumped MS due to spam, whiich seems odd to
me. In my experience these are among the very few groups
that still get traffic with a minimum of spam. But I get
the sense that it's not up for discussion.
AugustA
2023-02-07 12:46:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newyana2
Ray, the owner of E-S, has decided to dump all MS
groups. You can see discussion at eternal-september.support.
That's a shame because this sub-group was getting legitimate content and it was active.
Post by Newyana2
People have been exploring options for a few days now.
So far I've tried various things and can find only one
open server that's working. There was one that
Vanguard reccomended, something thing soralis. I
signed up there but haven't yet had a response. Just
now I found that paganini.bofh.team seems to work fine
and has all groups. Just don't try to make it work
encrypted. Use port 119.
Thx for the info. Will explore.
Post by Newyana2
It looks like E-S is kaput. Ray seems to have some
sort of grudge about MS, as do several regulars there.
He says he dumped MS due to spam, whiich seems odd to
me. In my experience these are among the very few groups
that still get traffic with a minimum of spam. But I get
the sense that it's not up for discussion.
Again, a shame. Too bad there wasn't a heads-up (advance warning) that we'd get cut off outright like that.
AugustA
2023-02-07 12:50:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Newyana2
Ray, the owner of E-S, has decided to dump all MS
groups. You can see discussion at eternal-september.support.
BTW.. He still seems to carry the following. Maybe one of these hierarchies could work:

alt.comp.os.windows-xp
alt.os.windows-xp
alt.windows-xp
Newyana2
2023-02-07 14:12:23 UTC
Permalink
"AugustA" <***@gmail.com> wrote

| BTW.. He still seems to carry the following. Maybe one of these
hierarchies could work:
|
| alt.comp.os.windows-xp
| alt.os.windows-xp
| alt.windows-xp
|

He's still carrying everything but Microsoft. He and
some others seem to have some kind of religious
resentment toward MS. (At least one of the people
posting in support of the decision is a Mac fanatic.)

There are no doubt thousands
of groups that get close to zero traffic. I did a quick
check of random outdated topics and found 6 Beatles
groups, 5 for naturism (hobby nudity) and one for
frisbees. :)

In my experience, the MS groups have been the most
active, most polite, and least spammy. Probably because
they started out as active groups staffed by MVPs. So
Ray's excuse doesn't hold water. And as you said, the
whole thing was done in a rude, abrupt manner. But it's
his show and it's free, so he can do as he likes.

You can try the other XP groups. I used to subscribe
to one of them. The problem, though, is that historically
very few groups see traffic. The MS group is used because
it's the only one still alive. (That die-off has also happened
among MS groups. I used to subscribe to COM programming,
win32 programming, WSH, etc. Gradually they all died out as
MS lapdogs dutifully moved to the controlled web forums
that MS owned, allowing them to reduce the forums to
little more than marketing.)

So the problem with going to alt* comp* groups is that
it's moving into a ghost town. You moving in won't make
people show up.

And of course, usenet itself is dying. Young people want
to compete for votes and be able to block voices they
don't like. I suspect they view usenet as too "feral". They've
never ventured outside the shopping mall.

I did some research and was surprised to find that:

* The vast majority using newsgroups are there to trade files.

* Among free newsgroups, even the tech media don't know
what's going on, nor do they apparently care.

* In general, usenet is now equated with paid file trading services.

* Lists of free access are all badly outdated.

After trying a few, this seems to be the only one that
works, and AIOE may be back eventually, but apparently
AIOE had some kind of failure that won't be easy to fix.
I'm surprised that there aren't a lot of colleges and non-profits
offering connections. It seems there used to be, but
virtually all have closed down.
AugustA
2023-02-08 02:52:33 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Feb 2023 09:12:23 -0500
"Newyana2" <***@invalid.nospam> wrote:

N> "AugustA" <***@gmail.com> wrote
N>
N> | BTW.. He still seems to carry the following. Maybe one of these
N> hierarchies could work:
N> |
N> | alt.comp.os.windows-xp
N> | alt.os.windows-xp
N> | alt.windows-xp
N> |

[...]

N> You can try the other XP groups. I used to subscribe
N> to one of them. The problem, though, is that historically
N> very few groups see traffic. The MS group is used because
N> it's the only one still alive.

I just posted a "is anybody here.." message in two of the above.

BTW.. I'm coming thru via paganini. Seems to be doable.


N> (That die-off has also happened
N> among MS groups. I used to subscribe to COM programming,
N> win32 programming, WSH, etc. Gradually they all died out as
N> MS lapdogs dutifully moved to the controlled web forums
N> that MS owned, allowing them to reduce the forums to
N> little more than marketing.)

The webforum solution does not appeal to me.

N>
N> So the problem with going to alt* comp* groups is that
N> it's moving into a ghost town. You moving in won't make
N> people show up.

True enough. But if you tell two friends and they tell two friends.. and so on, then maybe gradually it will populate. The key is to make people aware somehow that there are valid groups to chat in and meet-up there.

N> And of course, usenet itself is dying. Young people want
N> to compete for votes and be able to block voices they
N> don't like. I suspect they view usenet as too "feral". They've
N> never ventured outside the shopping mall.

I'm not sure about that. But I think young people simply have no idea about usenet/nntp.

N> After trying a few, this seems to be the only one that
N> works, [...]

Are you coming in from paganini?


N> [...] and AIOE may be back eventually, but apparently
N> AIOE had some kind of failure that won't be easy to fix.

I heard that it is some sort of RAID failure.


N> I'm surprised that there aren't a lot of colleges and non-profits
N> offering connections. It seems there used to be, but
N> virtually all have closed down.

Don't know about that. Perhaps colleges and non-profits simply can't allocate funds to pay someone to keep a usenet services operational.
Newyana2
2023-02-08 03:45:03 UTC
Permalink
"AugustA" <***@thankyou.invalid> wrote

| Are you coming in from paganini?
|
Yes. It's the only one I found that works with both
reading and posting. Interestingly, it wasn't listed on
any "best free usenet 2023" webpages I found.

I signed up with solani (solari?) but haven't heard back.
AugustA
2023-02-08 13:37:02 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 7 Feb 2023 22:45:03 -0500
"Newyana2" <***@invalid.nospam> wrote:

N> "AugustA" <***@thankyou.invalid> wrote
N>
N> | Are you coming in from paganini?
N> |
N> Yes. It's the only one I found that works with both
N> reading and posting. Interestingly, it wasn't listed on
N> any "best free usenet 2023" webpages I found.

There's actually some recent life in:

alt.comp.os.windows-xp
alt.os.windows-xp

The following seem quiet though:

alt.os.windows-xp
alt.os.windows.xp

It's almost a shame that there are so many similar-looking groups.


N>
N> I signed up with solani (solari?) but haven't heard back.

Chime in when it works. Meanwhile, this isn't too bad.
Loading...